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This is a back and forth conversation I had with a christian friend of mine named Chris. As you'll see in the conversation, he and I hold very different views on the interpretation of the bible. Sometimes having polar opposite views on some subjects. He shared with me that several people approached him saying that they really enjoyed seeing the back and forth. That although we both had very different views, we conversed in a polite and loving way. And I think this is the most important thing to take away from this. 

I'm only 32, I'm not that wise, and I don't claim to have come up with this myself. I'm sure this thought came from a pastor (probably Michael Gatlin from the Duluth Vineyard Church), or a parent (both of mine are very wise). But here's what I know. We all have opinions, and we will most likely never get anyone to agree with all of them. In fact, when we find ourselves in a discussion or argument, we should assume the other person or group will not agree with us, that they won't ever change their minds. So why discuss then? To LEARN about each other, to share thoughts, to discover how other poeple thing. And slowly, over time, perhaps we'll all change subtly, if only to start eating the same sandwhiches, or chocolages...or chocolate sandwhiches.



Note:

The image was used as a meme here was removed due to copyright infringement. You can follow this link to see what image it was:

https://lcs.maryevans.com/4QDQQO17

This is what it said:

"What does scholl really teach children?

1. Truth comes from authority

2. Intelligence is the ability to remember and repeat

3. Accurate memory and repitition are rewarded

4. Non-compliance is punished

5. Conform: Intellectually and socially"

The Facebook discussion below was in response to these words and no so much the image behind the words, so I felt fine with removing this intenet meme that apparently used a photo that was not license free.



  • Nathan R. Carlsen What does Chris teach me: any organized anything is bad. Except for church, kinda. Thanks Chris.

  • January 22 at 4:30pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Which one of these things do you agree with Nathan? When people organize around the Holy Spirit's leading, I'm a huge fan of that...

  • January 22 at 5:17pm · Unlike · 1

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Yeah I like that too. Go Holy Spirit.

  • January 22 at 5:18pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Well here's something to take a look at

  • January 22 at 5:33pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsenhttp://www.hipatiapress.info/.../generos/article/view/649

  • Women’s education reduces risk of Gender-Based Violence: evidence from 29 countries | Simister |...

  • www.hipatiapress.info

  • Women’s education reduces risk of Gender-Based Violence: evidence from 29 countries

  • January 22 at 5:33pm · Like · Remove Preview

  • Nathan R. Carlsen But I like this better

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIZgNC8bSnE

  • Pygmy Jerboa - Warning worlds cutest mouse!

  • www.youtube.com

  • At barely 2" long (about 47 mm, to be exact), the pygmy jerboa is one of the sma...See More

  • January 22 at 5:35pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview

  • Dennis Fronning I would never admit to learning anything from Chris VanDykebut the articles he posts are usually very good!!

  • January 22 at 7:01pm · Like · 1

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Ok, here's one more thing and I'll shut up:

  • http://www.voxeu.org/article/wide-ranging-benefits-education

  • The wide-ranging benefits of education | vox

  • www.voxeu.org

  • A growing body of evidence I surveyed (Lochner 2011) and discuss here suggests t...See More

  • January 24 at 1:18pm · Like · Remove Preview

  • Chris VanDyke Of course Nathan...of course the world falls apart without it being told what to do...but we are not of this world, neither is our wisdom. My family, friends & community are far better off because Jen & I chose a radically different educational model for our children. My hope & prayer is that others would choose to be holy (set apart) as we are. We are in this world; we are not of this world.

  • January 24 at 4:08pm · Edited · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Sure, but how far do we take it? There are people who live in this country that live very separate lives. The Amish. They are as far separate as a group of believers could be. Do I envy them? Hell yes I do, sounds awesome. With all this business we have with technology, they definitely keep the main thing the main thing: family, God, etc... However,...evangelism doesn't work so good. They're numbers don't grow too fast because people can't relate to them. They have their own schools, their own way of life and that's how they like it. But it's hard for them to reach out to people and say "hey, I have this awesome God here who loves you", and the other person would say "great...but I don't want to give up my entire life for that, so...so...".

  • January 24 at 4:17pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Now, I know what you're saying, yeah, there was that one rich guy who Jesus asked to give up his wealtch, but that was very specific circumstance, Jesus doesn't ask that of everyrone, and there isn't anywhere in the bible that says to give up everything, nor does it say we have to educate seperately.

  • January 24 at 4:18pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I for one am glad I have a lot in common with people I talk to, so that I can share funny sotries and stuff, but also know what they were taught in schools, and have lots of experiences with differnt people that don't look like me (specifiically minorities and just other familities that are diferent).

  • January 24 at 4:19pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I know your kids and wife, they're amazing, and I'm not saying they're not. But as a rule, should all christians home school or private school? I don't think scripture says this, nor do I see anywhere that might come close to saying that if you don't home school or put your kids in private christian school you're not a good christian...which...it kind of feels like is what you're saying.

  • January 24 at 4:20pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Ok, I totally went on a rant. I will leave with this:

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDSj8sv0uKs

  • Vintage21.com [1-4]

  • www.youtube.com

  • http://www.facebook.com/Vintage21Videos - Please join the facebook page for thes...See More

  • January 24 at 4:27pm · Like · Remove Preview

  • Chris VanDyke Who said anything about not having things in common...our family is about as social as it gets without sacrificing familial health...the Holy Spirit should be in the lead of each person to serve The Lord as He sees fit. But relatability is not the litmus test. I don't make rules for others. I simply attempt to love The Lord with all of my heart, mind & strength & lead my family to do the same. At the end of the day, if one is obeying the Holy Spirit, they will exemplify the fruit of the Spirit. I believe our family is a light in the darkness. Many families long to be like ours, but don't want to do what it takes. Sweeping generalization alert: Go to a public OR private school & observe Christian kids. Many of them don't exude the fruit of the Spirit, but you'll find the fruit of the world oozing from them. Are there public school success stories? Of course. But they are much more rare...

  • January 24 at 4:35pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Sweeping generalization alert is right. You're family is amazing (speaking of which, when are you gonna finish your yours we can hang out!?). But there are home schooled kids who have a hard time relating to people and who don't exude the spirit, as you say.The door swings both ways.

  • January 24 at 4:37pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen And when you post things that attack something that I, and many other christians, and non christians went to, enjoyed, and got a great benefit from, it comes off as a bit...um..spiky. Just saying.

  • January 24 at 4:38pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Our public education system/immoral society is radically failing children; children created in God's image; created to glorify God...that is...'spiky'

  • January 24 at 4:47pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Again, which of the five declarations in the pic can you disagree with?

  • January 24 at 4:49pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Um, all of them and none of them. The issue is more complicated than that. Basically, what that picture is tell me is that you, or the person who made it, is saying that anyone who GOES to school is a mindless moron who only follows what they're told.

  • January 24 at 5:00pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen And I don't think you think that of me, who went to public school.

  • January 24 at 5:00pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Morover, if that photo was true, then we wouldn't have ANY critical thinkers coming from public school. But we do, a ton of them.

  • January 24 at 5:01pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Is public school busted and needs reform, of COURSE, and I support it. But the same is true for ANY organization, including church (I.E. the Great Reformation).

  • January 24 at 5:02pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Basically, that photo, and other memes like it take a very complicated and nuanced discussed and boil it down to its most base and offensive position and doesn't really help the discussion. In my opinion.

  • January 24 at 5:03pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Sorry you're offended by it...I wish you weren't...

  • January 24 at 5:12pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Eh, I'm not easily offended. I'm just saying people could take this the wrong way.

  • January 24 at 5:15pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen And I'm also not sure what the right way would be.

  • January 24 at 5:16pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Again, I do agree that public education needs reform, and there has been many good things that have been changed to give children a better way of discovering things instead of just being forced to memorized facts and statistics.

  • January 24 at 5:17pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen It's like %90 of facts, dates, names, etc.. are forgotten after only a few years. But general concepts are retained.

  • January 24 at 5:17pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke I'm always amazed at your defense of societal/government 'solutions'...I have no problem declaring that our current educational system is most certainly not Jesus' ideal for His kiddos....not even remotely close. The public school system should be a very last resort for families....there is WAY too much confidence in that system

  • January 24 at 6:18pm · Like

  • Chris VanDykehttp://youtu.be/h11u3vtcpaY

  • Hackschooling makes me happy: Logan LaPlante at TEDxUniversityofNevada

  • www.youtube.com

  • When 13 year-old Logan LaPlante grows up, he wants to be happy and healthy. He d...See More

  • January 24 at 6:18pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Btw, my two oldest go to a teacher run public charter school. It's amazing & my standards are REALLY high. Why is it so good? 90% of the kids were homeschooled. The teachers are free to educate in whatever way is most effective. It's a student chosen, project based learning. There are no 'classrooms'. Student to teacher ratio is 1 to 10. Gifted students tutor less gifted in open environments. If you're not an independent, responsible, proactive learner, they kick you out. In other words, it's a free market style environment...the way everything should be!

  • January 24 at 6:37pm · Like

  • Chris VanDykehttp://www.wildlandschool.net/

  • Wildlands School | Wisconsin Charter School | Charter Science School

  • www.wildlandschool.net

  • Using the world as a classroom, our Wisconsin Charter School focuses on developi...See More

  • January 24 at 6:38pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen that's cool. What if they did that with public schools?

  • January 24 at 6:38pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen and what about the kids who get kicked out? what about them?

  • January 24 at 6:40pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke They're not able to do that with all public schools...They end up back in the public school where that kind of attitude & approach fits in perfectly...

  • January 24 at 6:59pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen and...they're just screwed and that's fine with you

  • January 24 at 7:00pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Lol..totally! Its the Biblical model. Jesus wants us to trust in him completely....not some safety net that protects us from godless behavior. "Don’t be misled—you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant. Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit." (Galatians 6:7, 8 NLT)

  • January 24 at 7:04pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke If you haven't already watched it, I highly recommend Amazing Grace. http://www.amazinggracemovie.com/

  • Amazing Grace: The Movie - The Official Movie Website

  • www.amazinggracemovie.com

  • January 24 at 8:25pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen So...kids who aren't homeschooled or don't go to private christian school are sinful?

  • January 25 at 1:10pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke As I stated a couple times in different ways earlier, if they're not being led by the Holy Spirit, of course they're sinning. As are their parents. As are you & I. I am simply pronouncing that public schools do not line up very readily with God's intent for His kids. But many of these parents (& their kids) call themselves Christians, but don't actually follow Jesus in obedience. Many of them don't even know the Scriptures so how could they? He wants to give them His peace, NOT as the world gives. His joy, which is NOT an emotion. His love, which is NOT conditional. But this ONLY comes in obedience. & yet parents send their kids to public schools for the express purpose for them to learn. Learn what? What are they learning 8-12hrs a day. (& more as they hang with friends, watch movies, listen to music which much is totally contrary to God's ways) I am no one's judge. This is simply what Jesus said. Read His words for yourself & decide what you should do. But why isn't this more obvious to you? Is it because you don't have kids? Have you ever actually studied the Scriptures to discern if the public education system conforms to God's heart? Have you ever thought about intentionally subjecting a child that YOU are a steward of, to a corrupt, wayward, & godless system to learn of its ways? I most certainly have...

  • love you Nate. May the Holy Spirit continually & completely lead you...

  • January 25 at 3:22pm · Like

  • Dennis Fronning One thing to keep in mind is that not all homeschoolers are christian, also I think what Chris is trying to say is that many families desire the togetherness and the freedom that homeschooling affords. I do believe that scripture supports homeshooling. Very good dialog guys!!

  • January 25 at 7:52pm · Like · 2

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I thought about weather or not I was going to reply. I don't want to get into an argument, and one of my life philosophies is that I can only control myself, and if I feel offended or hurt by what someone has said, then it's up to me to remove myself from that situation. But I prayed and thought about it and here's what I think.

  • January 28 at 2:19pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Mark, 2:16-17

  • “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

  • 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

  • January 28 at 2:20pm · Edited · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen In the old testament, it was very clear that God had chosen people. That the Israelites were to be separate from the rest. This was part of the old Covenent, one in which only the chosen were able to make sacrifices to appeal to God's grace and spare them from the ultimate result of sin which is death.

  • January 28 at 2:22pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen But in the New Testament, when Jesus came, when he died, the curtain was torn in two, giving everyone literal and figurative access to the presence of God. No longer are people required to go their priests to have access to God, but they can pray directly to Him. This was Jesus' main mission and goal, to give EVERYONE access to God.

  • January 28 at 2:24pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Historically, this is also one of the reasons he was so upset when the money changers were selling things outside the temple and he used a whip and flipped over tables. Because that was the only place gentiles, non jews, were able to worship God and they were being displaced by people trying to make money.

  • January 28 at 2:25pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen If you read the gospels carefully, you'll see that the only times Jesus really gets upset, the only times gets super angry, and in some places downright mean, sardonic, and possibly swearing, is at the religious elite, the people who make the rules of who gets access to God, who gets into heaven.

  • January 28 at 2:26pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen This is why I believe it is dangerous to think of people as "us and them". To think "we" know what is right, "we" have the in with God, and "those" people over there, those people that don't look like us, those people that don't know what we know, the people that are making different decisions than us, the people that are loving things we don't think is right, "those" people aren't like us. We're better than that, we know better, we know God.

  • January 28 at 2:27pm · Like · 1

  • Nathan R. Carlsen This is very dangerous...because it isn't how Jesus thinks.

  • January 28 at 2:28pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Jesus loves all, and chills and hangs out with all people, Jewish or not, chosen or not, sinful or not...but actually gravitates TOWARDS those that are deemed more sinful by those who regularly attend church (or in his time, temple).

  • January 28 at 2:29pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen If Jesus were here today, I truly believe he would be hanging out with the LGBT community, lawyers, strippers, prostitutes, the poor, porn stars, celebrities, wallstreet wolfs, and people who go to public schools  other sinners, and the like. Not because he approve of what they do, but because He loves them...and probably wouldn't hang out with us too much, because we think we know what is right and would probably be too arrogant to get He wants us to get.

  • January 28 at 2:32pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen The photo you posted never said anything about christianity or followers of Jesus who are set apart, it just attacked public schools period. This is the message that was sent and was received by people who went to public school, like me, in an attack of our education.

  • January 28 at 2:33pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen My relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with my education in public schools...and I don't want it to be because it's a personal relationship.

  • January 28 at 2:34pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I respect those who home school or send their kids to private school, what an amazing country we live it that gives us that freedom.

  • January 28 at 2:34pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen But to attack someone else's choices as if they were less holy, or more sinful, is a hurtful and dangerous accusation to make.

  • January 28 at 2:35pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen That's all I'm saying.

  • January 28 at 2:35pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen God bless, see you soon, maybe this weekend. We should watch a fantasy movie soon

  • January 28 at 2:35pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke I'll reply more in depth when I get a chance, or maybe we could sit & chat soon, but suffice it to say, there might be some lost in fb communication moments happening. There may be some incorrect assumptions being made. There may be some contextual errors occurring. Regardless, the Holy Spirit will continue to lead us into all truth as we obey...

  • Read John 17 if you get a chance

  • January 28 at 3:00pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Then read 1 John 2

  • January 28 at 3:34pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Then Romans 1

  • January 28 at 3:34pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Then 1 Corinthians 2

  • January 28 at 3:34pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Then Galatians 5

  • January 28 at 3:35pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Etc., etc.

  • January 28 at 3:35pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Tying your OT reference to NT, 1 Peter 1 would be good as well

  • January 28 at 3:39pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Cool, good stuff.

  • January 28 at 3:42pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen None of this really helps me understand the photo, and your point, better though.

  • your photo says:

  • What does school really teach children?

  • 1: Truth comes from authority

  • 2: Intelligence is the ability to remember and repeat

  • 3: Accurate memory and repetition are rewarded

  • 4: non-Compliance is punished

  • 5: Conform: Intellectually and socalliy

  • January 28 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen nothing in the pic has anything to do with the bible, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, etc...

  • January 28 at 3:49pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen It seems as though some of these things could apply here as well. Namely, compliance is punished and conform: intellectually and socially.

  • January 28 at 3:54pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen By posting that photo, I took it as you agreeing with it, and therefor attacking of the fact that I went to public school and would send my own children to it.

  • January 28 at 3:55pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen And feels as though you would rather I didn't, that you would rather I, and all Christians, home school or send their kids to private Christians schools, and if they didn't, would mock them by posting photos like this, in essence, attacking their compliance and conformity.

  • January 28 at 3:56pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke One would need to read the passages, ask God how they apply to the photo & let the Holy Spirit lead & guide him/her. There are many relatable issues with those Scriptures, the pic's statements & this conversation. No mocking going on...no attacking...at least not from my intentions & motivations. It is simply a thought provoking pic. Much to reflect on. I don't actually agree in totality with it. I do wholeheartedly hope that all parents will be deeply engaged in their children's training in the Way they should go...I would hope that parents would take pause before intentionally subjecting any child to anything that may cause them to stumble...especially because of Jesus & that whole millstone around the neck bit

  • January 28 at 4:18pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Matthew 18...another good read

  • January 28 at 4:21pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I appreciate the follow up, I don't disagree with everything in the pic either. Any organized anything will necessarily encourage conformity. And our public schools were originally set up to provide skilled workers for the main job providers of the time: factories. So, the schools look like factories, and that's not a good thing.

  • January 28 at 4:26pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen But I would argue change and reform is always necessary in all areas of life. Schools, churches, temples, governments (large or small). It's a fact of life that things need to change, to grow, in order to be healthy. Everything accept God of course, He never changes...and that's a good thing

  • January 28 at 4:27pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke & I would still encourage you to actually read those passages while asking the Holy Spirit to speak to you. He has promised to guide us into all Truth. His truth...not 'the world's' idea of truth. He makes the distinction between 'us' & 'them' (the world), I didn't come up with that...I just humbly ask Him to empower me to obey His words & be holy (set apart {in action, not necessarily locality, though sometimes that is also wise considering maturity levels in Christ such as children & new followers}) as He is Holy knowing that 'the world' (& those who love the world) will hate me as it hated him. Again, His words, not mine...

  • January 28 at 4:47pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen Sweet, I will. And I would ask you to pray and ask God if the way you present yourself, your ideas, your faith, might unnecessarily cause division in God's community, or unnecessarily create reasons for unbelievers to dislike a believer. You're right there are parts of our lives, our decisions, or actions or inactions that "the world" might hate because it follows God's will and not what people have decided is ok. But I would encourage you to pray and ask God that really looks like. Is that deciding to fight against public schools? Or could it be fighting against modern day slavery, being set apart as men who don't watch pornography or visit strip clubs while at the same time not demonizing the women in them. Fighting for the poor instead of filling our pockets and houses with things we really don't need. Protecting God's earth and creation when it's inconvenient to ourselves. I know you do all these things, and I know I struggle with all them. Just encouraging prayer as well as to where our focus should be when it comes to being set apart.

  • January 28 at 5:04pm · Like

  • Chris VanDyke Again, two of my kids go to a public school (a charter school in the August school district). The part i love about the Holy Spirit is i know He will guide you the way HE desires you to be guided. Its not up to me at all...i'm super cool with that. Along with those scriptures, I also recommend watching Waiting for 'Superman'

  • http://www.takepart.com/waiting-for-superman

  • Waiting for "Superman": News

  • www.takepart.com

  • Waiting For "Superman" was in theaters in 2010, but that doesn't mean the moveme...See More

  • January 28 at 5:33pm · Unlike · 1

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I've heard a lot about Waiting for Superman, and I plan to see it. I've also heard some really good interviews of teachers doing some amazing things in Chicago in public schools. Basically rethinking the way they teach and they way they mentor teachers. (basically, there wasn't any real mentoring, and now there is, at least in this one particular school). Good stuff.

  • January 28 at 5:42pm · Like

  • Nathan R. Carlsen I would also recommend reading Lies my Teacher Taught Me, if you haven't already. It's pretty much the entire basis for this article on Cracked: h

  • ttp://://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you...

  • 6 Ridiculous Lies You Believe About the Founding of America

  • www.cracked.com

  • It turns out our teachers, Hollywood and whoever we got our Thanksgiving mytholo...See More

  • January 28 at 5:44pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview

  • Nathan R. Carlsen This brings me to a totally different subject: Why we shouldn't celebrate Columbus anymore.

 

 

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